jordoncooper.com

1. Posted by: Mark Berry - 07/23/2006

   there is also decades of civilians dying in cafes, school buses, and schools across Israel.

   Of course we should akcnowkledge this… just as we should the similar deaths of Palestinians, the beach bombings, the thousands who watched as their land was taken from them, as settlements arose on land they hasd been removed from because it was to be an-unsettled buffer zone, a wall being built which seperated them from friends and families and in a number of places robbed them of more land against intenational law etc. etc.

   One cannot deny Israel has suffered, the problem is it has inflicted just as much suffering itself (of course backed by the US etc.) and it’s response is always disproprtional and indiscriminate!

2. Posted by: Mark Berry - 07/23/2006

   sorry my url is http://www.wayoutwest.co.uk

3. Posted by: Mike O - 07/23/2006

   “Idle hands are the devil’s workshop”. Remember that from Catholic schools? If you didn’t go to Catholic schools, ask a friend who did.

   My whole take on the Palestinian situation is jobs. If Joe-average-Palestinian had a good job, a home, and a chance to send his kids to college, he’d be a whole lot less inclined to raise a ruckus.

   Arafat, who never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity, could have established employment in Gaza/West Bank with European (nearby) or other countries and companies. Palestinians are smart - and the geography lends itself to manufacture of large items, needing skill and technology. Such as automobile axles, doors, and upholstery.

   Arafat came from a textile family, however, like Bush, never applied for a job in his life and has no identity with the workingman. But he could have worked deals with Europe’s auto industry, making components and shipping them to Europe for final assembly. Heck, if they can make Porsches in Finland, they can make the seats and interiors in Gaza.

   If Europe can get its 10 percent unemployment down, they could put together an employment structure that would keep Palestinians busy, and peaceful.

4. Posted by: jdluntjr - 07/23/2006

   The idea of proportionality in war is absurd. It’s a liberal proposition that leads to an endless series of tit for tat. Be slow to go to war, but once the decision is made, victory should be the only acceptable outcome.

5. Posted by: Mark Berry - 07/23/2006

   …Damn, wish we’d known that before… kill em all (men, women and children, comabatants and non-combatants) and it will all be over - No more war… hell lets just kill everyone who isn’t us, then we’ll really have peace!

   [pleased to be a liberal... as it's always the extremists not the liberals who start wars]

6. Posted by: Mark Berry - 07/23/2006

   The idea of proportionality in war is absurd.

   BTW have you read the Geneva convention? A liberal proposition maybe… but one designed to inhibit the kind of atrocities we saw in the 2nd WW… Mind you as so many signatories flout the convention (inc the US) perhaps we should just accept Genocide, Torture, Rape, Ecological destruction, Concentration camps, massacre of CHildren and women, attempts to obliterate a particular race, creed, tribe etc. as a normal part of War… I do like the idea of ‘Slow to go to War’ though, just a shame that as the country who has bombed more other countries than any other since 1945 the US authoritites don’t seem to agree with you.

7. Posted by: Mark Berry - 07/23/2006

   If Europe can get its 10 percent unemployment down, they could put together an employment structure that would keep Palestinians busy, and peaceful.

   .. or hey, what about having their own jobs, in their own land, and being allowed to live freely…like the rest of us they would probably find that enough to occupy their time.

8. Posted by: John - 07/23/2006

   Been talking about the Israel/Palestine/Middle East situation with a friend at work. He is Syrian by birth (though a naturalized American), and a Muslim. The perspective is quite interesting. There is an incredible sense of justice in him, and of honor, and of DEFENDING honor, his own & his God’s. It has all reminded me of how revolutionary “turn the other cheek” was and is.

9. Posted by: Jordon - 07/23/2006

   Mike, Friedman talked about that in Longitudes and Attitudes. He pointed out that there was almost no investment back into Palestine, even when the money was flowing in. He suggested that he only knows how to make war, something that Clinton has suggested over the years. It doesn’t look good either with Hamas involved now either.

10. Posted by: Jordon - 07/23/2006

    Mark, thanks for your comments and I agree that suffering has gone on in both sides.

    As far as a proportional response, I have struggled with that. Bernard Lewis writes that when Israel has shown restraint or compassion in the past, their enemies have seen it as a sign of softness or weakness and have stepped up their attacks on Israel.

11. Posted by: Mark Berry - 07/24/2006

    Indeed, Jordon… but one cannot view this conflict in the simplistic way loved by George W (Axis of Evil and all that blarney) it is really naive and unhelpful to see this as part of an evil imperial Islam… perhaps if some western observers/politicians would look back only as far as the 1948 - they would see a West sponsored terrorist Israel (The Irgun etc) forceably ejecting people off land that had been in their families for generations, the Arabs (quite consistently) see the continuing theft of land and the US uneiquivecal and unconditional support for Israel as part of the same injustice! They see no change in Israel (and her sponsors) since then - there has been constant infringement of Arab & Lebanese freedom by Israel (from the Suez, the 6 day war, the annexation of the Golan Heights and the 2 previous illegal invasions of Lebanon - 78 and 82) Many Arabs feel they have been under attack for decades with any attempted access to international law vetoed by the US.

    Oh and let’s be honest we all know the US has been looking for an excuse to isolate and destroy Syria since it became clear that the Invasion and occupation of Iraq had stretched Global patience and there was no support for the (at one time seemingly imminent) invasion of Syria, so desired by Rumsfelt. An old argument goes, if Germany had won the 2nd WW then the French and Polish resistance would have gone down in history as terrorists, not Freedom fighters we know them as… and Hiroshima etc. as the greatest attrocity ever! It’s way to easy to see only the History written by those with the most powerful hand.

    BTW I am not supporting Hezbollah, my views are the same as the vast majority of world leaders (except Bush and his poodle (Blair)) that the first thing that should happen is a cease fire, then let’s get the prisoners exchanged and begin to look to the future… extreme action (shoot to kill and internment) did not work in Ireland, it made the situation far far worse, what worked was (though not without struggle) was an attempt to step away from History for a while and deal with each other as people seeking to live in their own culture and community not as evil(as it did in South Africa also). The US should (in its global position) not be taking sides (as it is) but seeking to negotiate a cease fire and arbitration… at least that would prevent more Children from being maimed and killed for a while - unlike the ones yesterday who were fleeing as instructed by Israel only to have their mini-bus targeted by Israeli figher planes.

12. Posted by: Jordon - 07/26/2006

    The problem is that both Israel and the Hezbollah are in the wrong to a variety of degrees. Today a Hezbollah leader said that he was suprised by Israels attack despite firing hundreds of missles into Israel and kidnapping two soldiers. Yes I agree that Israel has gone beyond a measured response but they have been known to go to extremes before to recover lost troops bodies and this is a part of that. Sadly, Lebanon is in the middle of this again.

13. Posted by: Mark Berry - 07/26/2006

    I completely agree Jordon… it might help the situation if the leaders of our respective countries would acknowledge the sins of both sides, instead of constructing a false dualism… which seems entirely based on a ‘Cowboy & Indian’ concept of right and wrong… with each side (in this case the Islamic world and the US) seeing the other as the ones wearing the Black hats… one would have hoped that our governments would learn from their own histories… it often seems that the US political classes need demons (wether it be communism or Islam) in order to convince everyone that they are the real saints! Either that or they have a compulsive need to meddle in other countries political and military affairs, only to have to meddle again when, after a few years in turns out they backed the wrong side (read Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Afganistan etc. etc.)

    Colin Chapman wrote an instresting view of the Middle East Crisis called “Whose Promised Land?”

14. Posted by: Jordon - 07/26/2006

    Mark, I am just sure how Israel today has to respond to the problem of Hezbollah who wishes to see Israel destroyed more than anything. That doesn’t mean that killing civillians is the answer either (although from past conflicts we know that what appears to be a civillian death isn’t but at the same time, we know innocent lives are being lost) but how do you deal with an enemy that sees love as a weakness and just wants to see you destroyed. It reminds me of the Russian/German front in WWII where it stopped being a war of territory and became a war of annialation. The difference there is that there was a front and two nations fighting.

    My big question is will Hezbollah respect a cease fire to allow wounds to heal.

15. Posted by: Jordon - 07/26/2006

    My other question and I don’t know what the answer is… is Israel ready for peace after the failed 2000 peace accords and the later uprising.

16. Posted by: Mark Berry - 07/27/2006

    Jordon, again I agree with your questions… I don’t think there is an easy answer… the two premise (not particularly yours… just those that seem to emmanate generally from the US) I would critique are a) Israel is generally peaceful and simply wants the status quo without being attacked - Israel too wants to see its Islamic neighbours destroyed or at least wants their land! and b) that there is one wrong and one right side… that there is one aggressor and one innocent… that there are black hats and white hats!

    In my mind (and as I said in those the rest of the worlds leaders and NGO’s - including the rest of the UK government it seems) the best strategy is not that supported by Rice and Bush… carry on killing until we we can be assured of an ultimate peace… pie in the sky!… carry on killing and you will breed more extremists… it didn’t work in Ireland… my opinion is that what is needed is a cease fire… stop the killing, we need Syria to be on board if Hezbollah is going to be disabled… what we don’t need is Syria saying enough is enough and joining with Hezbollah… unfortunatley my suspicion is that is exactly what the US government want… they want to reshape the middle east in their own interest (even in their own image!)

    It would also be nice if Israel stopped bombing UN observors, fleeing civillians etc. etc. and if the US would stop using UK domestic airports for transporting Missiles to Israel!

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