A bigger waste of resources?
Everywhere I drive these days I see advertisements in front of churches advertising their Christmas pageant or Christmas cantata. It made me wonder if there is anything else in the church year that compares to this in terms of energy, money, and time expended which provides so little impact for the community. I know I am biased because of my context but in a setting in many communities where people struggle financially with the basics over the winter and especially over Christmas, there just seems to be a far better use of time and money then putting on a Christmas production whose real star is a local border collie herding live sheep. Sure you put on a nice evening for some seniors in a community but is entertaining the saints worth that kind of effort, especially when others are in need and especially when almost every other church in town is doing the same thing?
Wendy (who for years sang in her church's "Singing Christmas Tree") and I were talking about the opportunities for churches to make a huge difference over the holidays, both traditional and non-traditional and while there are that do some amazing things, I can't help but wonder what would happen if more churches turned their efforts towards those that need real help rather than towards restaging another Christmas story. Steve Sjogren demonstrates this best with Servant Evangelism.
Don't get me wrong, I love a good Christmas party and I am not really talking about that but there are churches that toss thousands of dollars and hundreds and hundreds of staff hours to an event that largely caters to other Christians. Former colleagues talk about the impact to their church in terms of conflict survived instead of lives changed with even from a straight church growth angle, it doesn't produce much results. It just seems to be something that we have done for years because we have always done it.
It reminds me a little bit of something Doug Pagitt said years ago at Soularize in Minneapolis (apologies to Doug if I am misquoting him). He said that we need to spend less time concentrating on what the Reformer's wrote and instead we need to do more of what they did. Instead of spending so much time recreating the nativity, I wonder what would happen if we did a better job of doing what happened, being God incarnate on earth.
9:10 AM ::
39 Comments:
What about churches that charge $10-15 per ticket for their programs? That's a rant of mine waiting to happen.
you are just beginning to sound angrier and angrier.
Isn't it possible the church is doing the pageant AND something community- or missional-focused but have decided to only publicly promote the pageant?
Kevin, I wasn't trying to sound angry but it is frustrating to see the physical need out there while Christians spend over $5B dollars each year on religious goods from Christian bookstores (not including books).
Is that what we are called to do?
Jordon, we're one of those churches that did a musical just this past weekend.
One "unchurched" family said that they were thankful to have something in town that was good "entertainment" yet didn't cost anything. They're cashless.
Others said that they were glad to be able to be at something without feeling like someone's project, just to receive a Christmas gift with the rest of the crowd.
Most of all, people expressed a desire to get connected into our faith community. Many were people who did not know the Lord.
Sure, we spent a few grand retelling an old story (admission was free) but feel that we made an impact in our backyard.
But that's just our experience. I agree that we sometimes cater to other Christians and fall into the thinking that success = big crowds. We, however, are measuring it by how we served a part of our community that has no other contact with the Church.
I have no idea whether it is what we are supposed to be doing that. But let's be sure that the log is out of our own eye first. I seem to recall regular updates on a fabulous trip to the bahamas. I am not condemning your trip but if you take a Rich Christian in the Age of Hunger apporach be sure it is consistent. To be honest I am sure that more good was done by having 100 church Christmas Pageants in Saskatoon, than the money spent on the gathering of the minds in Bahamas.
Amen Kevin!
Jordon,
I agree with you on this. From my experience, the Christmas Musical is predominantly entertainment for the already churched. Coming from a mega church I have seen thousands of dollars and unbelievable man hours poured into the yearly Christmas production. A couple of years ago the church decided to stop the production. Many in the church (mostly those that were in the productions) were pretty upset. On the flip side there weren't a lot of people outside the church that were disappointed. What could have been done if all that money had been poured into the poor and hurting? What about the thousands of man hours that were spent each year? How many people could have been helped if we had left the walls of the church and poured those hours into the community? What about all the talent that was used on stage? Think of all the things and happiness that the talented musicians, singers, actors, techies, and others could have brought to the community if their talents had been better allocated. Good post!
keith
"To be honest I am sure that more good was done by having 100 church Christmas Pageants in Saskatoon, than the money spent on the gathering of the minds in Bahamas."
And ladies and gentlemen, in a few short sentences, back to logs and sticks and stones and specks of all kinds...it's the "I'm offended because you're offended" lightning round! :)
Karen at onehouse.blogs.com
Kevin,
Re: Bahamas and Soularize.
The decision to hold Soularize in Bahamas was made for several reasons and one of them was that it is quite cheap to fly there. There were flights from Saskatoon to Nassau that time of the year for less than what I pay to fly to Toronto or Vancouver. Some flights out of Seattle were found at $119 return. My costs to fly to Nassau with some Air Miles were less then when I drove to Soularize in Seattle or Minneapolis. I am not sure if I could drive to Calgary and back with today's gas prices with what it cost to fly there and back.
When we were down there, our beach house was cheaper per person than splitting hotels and it had the added bonus of having a kitchen so we dined to some of Adam Klein and Mark Scandrette's home cooking. Of course toilet paper and milk were expensive.
Soularize cost less to attend and get to then the National Pastor's Conference and in many ways, cheaper than the conferences many denominations put on every year. Soularize has traditionally been like that.
r,
I can't really argue with anecdotal evidence but considering that thousands of cantatas are staged every year and church attendance is flat or declining, how much impact are they making?
Even from a church growth perspective I wonder if it is a worthwhile investment of time and energy.
Becky,
I totally agree with you. As a poorer family growing up, I remember missing one or two of those programs held by our own church because we couldn't afford it. I hear people saying, "What's $10?" Well it's a lot when you don't have it.
I know the rationale is that it costs the church to put this on and we need to recover our costs but it is something else that separates people at Christmas.
I never went to Soularize but I priced it out from Montreal and it was going to be a pretty cheap conference to attend. While it is cheap for me to fly to the centre of the universe (Toronto), I agree with Jordan that it is cheaper to fly to Nassau than it would for me to fly normally to Calgary.
I have been to Nassau a couple of times and while it is a different country, it is extremely cheap to fly there via New York or Miami which is why so many conferences are held there.
Jordan, as to your question, I think you are asking is it better to spend the money on an outdated form of community outreach that isn't that effective compared to how much money and effort a big production takes up or is it better doing something that impacts the community in a way like Servant Evangelism can. Now I say can because a lot of churches have dabbled in it that I know of and the results are limited but I get your point.
A lot of money and effort does get spent on Christmas and most of it goes to entertain ourselves.
Chris,
My church is all about the pageantry. We do shoeboxes but considering the average income in my congregation is probably $50,000, it ain't much.
I would argue that Jordan is kind of right in that the pageant is the end all and be all and that most churches enter into a token social justice component at Christmas.
My church has no idea how to connect with our community. We live in the suburbs and I think we default to what we know instead of taking a risk in making a difference. Every December we have big crowds and by January 1st we are lamenting how uncommitted people are.
Good post!
Dear Jordan,
You can say what you want about the expense of Soularize, I am about to fly myself to a conference in the Southern United States, but you cannot deny that we all decisions about how to spend our money in a way that best furthers the kingdom of God. You and I are making the decision to go to conferences that cost min $500-1000 bucks a head when everything is said and done. We do that because the church needs educated leaders, and part of that education is meeting with people from around the world. It is good for the church.
These churches, mine included are making the decision to spend $X on telling the story of the nativity, in hopes that people will respond to it, or at least that they will remember it so that the Holy Spirit can bring it to mind at a later date. God bless them for doing so. It is good for the church.
My point was this. If we are going to go around and examine everyone's books to be sure that they are the best possible stewards of the resources God has entrusted them with, then we best be ready to take criticism for how we make decisions.
Kevin
Kevin, that wasn't my point at all and I am sorry you missed it. My point is that it is not making any difference with these efforts. Church attendance is declining and while it does go up at Christmas, it goes back down in January. It isn't the money spent, it is the money spent for almost no return when resources could be spent on actually making a big difference in those lives that are hurting and oppressed.
I had a meeting two weeks ago with an NGO that is trying to get underage prostitutes off the street in Saskatoon that is underfunded and largely ignored by the faith community in the city.
Many would argue that those girls (many I see beat badly when I work nights) who need the church's help far more than saints need to be entertained.
Even at the main shelter in Saskatoon, most of the people who respond to requests for warm winter clothing (my old employer, Lakeview Church excluded) are the business community who are outside the church.
I couldn't agree with you more! It's all about feeling good & seeing our kiddies perform, rather than making a meaningful difference in the community.
pax,
meb
Jordan,
My wife would call you an idiot if she read this post (I am printing it off now) but for the last couple of weeks we have barely seen each other while she directs our church cantata. I hate to say it but my sons resent her and the church for the time she has spent there and it has drained her physically and made her miserable to be around this season and some friends have said the same about their spouses. This is all in her efforts to "spread the Good News".
Even Jesus thought it was ok to celebrate and have some fun sometimes:
Jesus Changes Water to Wine
On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus' mother was there,and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. When the wine was gone, Jesus' mother said to him, "They have no more wine."
"Dear woman, why do you involve me?" Jesus replied, "My time has not yet come." His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you." Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water"; so they filled them to the brim. Then he told them, "Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet." They did so, and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside and said, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now."
This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed in Cana of Galilee. He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him.
I am not saying it isn't okay to have fun but let's not call it anything else than a party.
Dear Jordan,
First, I am not willing to concede that the Christmas Pageants achieve nothing, I think they tell the story of God's gracious act in restoring humanity. This story needs to be heard again and again, and this is a good way of doing it.
Okay, let's be sure you caught my point. What difference was made in you spending $500-1000 to go to the Bahamas to talk with these other guys? Where is the fruit from that expense, those manhours?
There just seems to be a completely hypocritical attitude of emerging church types towards the traditional churches. All you guys seem to want to do is moan about how the traditional church has failed in its mission repeatedly. How everything they do is wrong, and how you new guys have really figured out the gospel.
But where is the fruit of the emerging church? For all the hype I have yet to see any impact. It just seems to be a generation of self-indulgent post-evangelicals, publishing their thoughts on teh internet.
If you are so convinced you have the way forward, then show it demonstrate it. That will convince people, don;t spend your time tearing down the old church until you have something better to offer.
Kevin
"Church attendance is declining and while it does go up at Christmas, it goes back down in January."
Perhaps the Church has to keep having fun, celebrations, parties and laughter beyond Christmas.
Maybe the reason people stop coming after Christmas is that they have other things they would rather do with their leisure time than sit in a pew, sing songs and listen to a 30 minute sermon.(particulary men)
When will the church offer fun, exciting, happy, alternative activities year round and not just at Christmas ?
Kevin,
You said, "Okay, let's be sure you caught my point. What difference was made in you spending $500-1000 to go to the Bahamas to talk with these other guys? Where is the fruit from that expense, those manhours?"
Well the cost wasn't close to what you quoted but that's neither here nor there.
Actually the payoff was quite significant in a couple of ways that I haven't blogged about (believe it or not I do have a life separate from online). I think both of those things will have an impact for Resonate and the church in Canada as well as some things impacting the community here.
Can they be linked to being at Soularize? The one project would not have happened if I had not been at Soularize. The other project would have launched but after talking to friends there, I realized it was flawed and with some rethinking of the concepts, goals, and ideas... it should be quite a bit more effective. For a smaller price that you quoted, it was a pretty effective trip considering on top of that I was able to spend some time learning from N.T. Wright, Richard Rohr and others.
"When will the church offer fun, exciting, happy, alternative activities year round and not just at Christmas ?"
Well I don't know if I agree that is the metaphor that a church needs to live by (the cost of following Jesus was not defined as "exciting or happy" but it does reinforce my point that churches put a huge investment into the Christmas festivities that are not even that connected to church life the rest of the season.
Is the church selling something that isn't offered later on in the year?
Even with our Christmas celebrations, they are often more focused around the consumer calendar than the church calendar (which is painfully pointed out by Robert Webber in Ancient Future Time).
As much as I'm enjoying this witty banter...errr...he said/she said...umm. pissing contest?? I have a little quip to add myself.
I'm a firm "grinch" in regards to Christmas pageants (sorry to have to paint myself with a non-biblically sanctioned figure), and I do think that they are typically an immense waste of resources - yet there is something rewarding/redeeming? in them too.
here's my thoughts:
- expensive pageants are often overly managing, life sucking events that do not give a good return of invest (pointed out cleared by the commenter who's wife is running their Cantata - thanks for the honesty) and are usually so expensive simply because leaders do not invest as much in creativity as in pageantry. With a few creative people you can craft an amazing pageant with little to no expenditures - while still having something heartwarming and "outreaching" (sorry my evangelese is getting weak).
We've established a tradition of "made at home" costumes and developed a "come as you are" pageant that needs very little preparation time, no scripting or memorization, and every man, woman and child can walk in the door and participate - no exhausting rehearsals or absentee parents.
We made this shift in order to become "easy" on families during Advent - unlike most churches. We have a creative pageant director who has developed this event and we've committed to keeping things user-friendly and cheap or we won't do it. You cannot break or stretch the commands of God in order to receive the blessing of God and we believe that families united and Advent as a time of waiting and Peace are the greater commands - over and above a cantata.
One other point - I hate long comments too! These huge events are useless if your congregation is not already in a posture of relationship and proximity to its community prior to hosting it. If your church already has a long and valued history of partnership , ministry and engagement in your community then larger Christmas celebrations may have a more legitimate place - but really, it's not legitimate on its own merits but on the pre-existing interconnection with the community. All that being said, we each need to be aware of the costs of these events and how they do or do not serve the kingdom of God. If we can do without it, do it cheaper & more creatively, that should be out option - but for some communities it may fit.
Also - it's kinda prickish to call out a person's individual choices on whether to attend a conference (ON THEIR OWN TAB) in order to compare them to the huge expenses ENTIRE CHURCH'S spend on these events. The leaders of these churches are not spending THEIR OWN MONEY - they're spending the money of their congregants - stewardship is a much more sticky thing in this regard. (If I was in many of these churches - I'd be banging the drum of poor stewardship).
Jordan,
Count me as an ally on the value of attending conferences, you can;t beat the education and networking that goes on there. But I suspect most people would regard the costs associated with attending a conference in the bahamas, as being a bigger waste of money than putting on a Christmas Pageant that fills churches with people who don't normally attend.
I think both are of great value to the church. My point has been since the beginning, that you and I think the whole emerging church group are constantly tearing down and not building up. If you want to go to a conference, and think that will build the kingdom of God, go. But don;t tear down others who want to proclaim loud and clear to a world that Jesus is Born.
It is especially irritating to see when you have such a sketchy track record. There is so much hype about the emerging church yet I have not seen any fruit of it born out that has built up the church.
Why don;t you build something, further the kingdom of God, and then let the results speak for themselves.
Kevin
Oh and Jerrod I think you are a prick.
Kevin, how many times does Jordan have to say he spent very little money to get to Bahamas. It cost less money than flying to any Canadian city and I know Coop and Wendy well enough to know they live quite simple lives and this trip was no exception. Perhaps you missed the fact that he spent a night in the Toronto airport chilling out rather than shell out for a hotel room (and saving some money for the conference) on his way down, cooked their own food while down there and took part in a conference that cheaper to get to and attend then the National Pastor's Conference and most denominational conferences. So are you calling Coop a liar or do you just struggle with reading.
Kevin you said,
"I think both are of great value to the church. My point has been since the beginning, that you and I think the whole emerging church group are constantly tearing down and not building up. If you want to go to a conference, and think that will build the kingdom of God, go. But don;t tear down others who want to proclaim loud and clear to a world that Jesus is Born.
It is especially irritating to see when you have such a sketchy track record. There is so much hype about the emerging church yet I have not seen any fruit of it born out that has built up the church.
Why don;t you build something, further the kingdom of God, and then let the results speak for themselves."
I have pastored in a traditional church for eleven years and worked in a seeker driven mega church for five. The exact same things I am talking about here were the same questions that we wrestled with in those contexts. It isn't a question about the emerging church or traditional church, it is a question on effectiveness and what are the ways that churches can reach a community. Now that I am working for a homeless shelter serving some of the poorest people in my city, we discuss this as well. If I can be accused of anything, it is falling into the traditional thinking in terms of church growth.
Even though many of the people that I deal with are illiterate, they know the Christmas narrative. They have probably seen it many times this season on television. What they need to see is a church that lives out that story instead of just retelling it. All churches retell it and the majority of Canadians just yawn. My post is and always has been about what would happen if the church actually lived out the Christmas message rather than just retold it. In practice, many churches that have reached beyond the season retelling of the story and moved into action have made a big difference.
Maybe you and I have different idea of what value is created in the emerging church. When my friend Scott Williams bought a restaurant himself and am using it to help feed the poor in Mission as well as a base for Club Church, that seems like value. When some friends church in SoCal defies city bylaws that ban homelessness to house them, that seems to give value.
Jordan, why do you put up with this asshole?
Kevin, do you even know Jordan well enough to comment on his sketchy track record? Would you like to elaborate?
That and Jordan did not spend his churches money to go to Soularize, it was his (and Wendy's) personal income. The funny thing is that I work for a NGO similar to what Jordan works at. If his income is like mine, if it was really expensive, he wouldn't have been able to go.
Technically I said it was "prickish"
And yes - I am kind of a prick
I admit I have been a lurker on Jordon's blog for a couple of years. These posts are close to my heart so I am all too happy to comment. As a lurker that does not personally know Jordon, I can't personally defend him, but I will say that when conversation turns to personal attacks against Jordon it reminds me more of stone throwing than anything else.
Simply said, we all know:
First, we are to give tithes and offerings to the church. Let's not play the 10%, pre-tax, post-tax, or Mark 12:42-44 game as that is for another post.
Second, the church is to be good stewards with its resources. The resources should go to love, help, lead, and disciple the community. Do Christmas cantatas fall under help? I don't see where else it could fall. Maybe they do help, but personally I think the church can do better with its resources.
Third, after giving our sacrifices to God, we are to be good stewards of our personal resources. If we go above and beyond (like I think we should) give to the Salvation Army, World Vision, AIDS research and help, poverty, or going to conferences to help us reach and disciple the lost, then we go above and beyond what most of the people in our churches do.
If Jordon spent personal money on an inexpensive conference that will have both short term and long term benefits to his community then people need to back off as he was being a good steward of his resources. To compare his personal stewardship with the church's stewardship is plain silly.
I will shut up now. I have probably said too much already.
Than go ahead and do what you want to do, but stop throwing stones at other people doing what they think is the best thing to do.
"I will honor Christmas in my heart and try to keep it all the year"
Charles Dickens
Christmas definition:
from the Middle English Cristemas, in turn from Anglo-Saxon Crīstes mæsse, Christ's festival
Festival definition:
a day or period of time set aside for feasting and celebration
Popular Christmas themes include the promotion of goodwill and peace
Kevin,
In a diverse church there is always going to be someone questioning why someone does something and how we can do it differently. I did it this one time but I suppose it is done all of the time.
At the same time there will always be those defending the way it has always been done.
Heh, that always cracks me up when people get defensive when you ask questions.
Good grief.
I run an urban "inner city" ministry, it's not a church. We had a Christmas program for children, youth and families in our programs, and that Christmas program consisted of children demonstrating what they've learned in our Afterschool arts program as well as hearing them recite some memorized poems, songs, etc. from school. Then we sang a closing Christmas carol.
After that, our Christmas ministry is completely about looking for raw needs in the hood. Some people have given us toys for children, gift cards for teens, and straight up cash. Since most of our staff lives in the immediate community, we are all keeping eyes and ears out for needs.
We have hired groups of teen dropouts to do very odd jobs so that they are earning cash, not just getting a handout. For others, adults with kids, we are just giving small bits of cash on a one-to-one, discernment basis. We are trying to respond to every little need with giveouts.
Now, in general I'm not a proponent of "giveout" or "giveaway" ministry. We can often rob people of their God-given dignity, or perpetuate a handout mentality. But at Christmas-time, many people are truly feeling down and out and broken and really don't feel like or need a sermon or lecture from a semi-stranger. This approach works because we are neighbors and we have ongoing relationships with these folks, and it often turns out that weeks or months later, these folks are open to who we are and what we are about.
Here are some direct results of the above approach: (a) People are TOTALLY grateful. (b) They LOVE our ministry and our people for just helping out. (c) All sorts of "characters" come out of the shadows seeking help and being open to our faith. Just an hour ago I had a pair of known and reputed gangsters come up to me, asking if there are jobs at our ministry, saying (cuss word every sentence) that they don't want to go back to prison. They approached me because they had heard that we put some others to work on a seasonal basis and that "maybe there are jobs" at our ministry.
Talking about jobs and checks, we run a year-round program for teens where they earn a paycheck while being required to attend college prep, bible study, and educational field trips. They walk around the hood with a real check in their hands. The whole community sees it. We have a steady stream of youth, youth who don't know us and we don't know them, who come to our ministry asking for jobs. Nefarious characters know we help teens in this way and they respect us for it.
We win huge goodwill by getting cash into people's pockets, mostly be "work for it" means, sometimes by straight out giveout charity.
How this relates to the thread/question Jordon put out? I say we MAKE SURE we are doing the type of "help the community" ministry as the priority, then Christmas pageants and cantatas can be done (or not done) relative to those "helping others" actions. We may find that we don't have as much energy for a big church production because all of our energy involves chasing people, getting support to them, and being good neighbors. Or we may find that we have energy for all of it, and our Christmas pageants and events will be all the more meaningful.
Two cents from very far south of the Canadian border. It's about 64 degrees out. Sunny, and bright - I had to shield my eyes earlier. I think I'll go put on my flip-flops and walk out to the get the mail. Or go to Santa Monica beach later wearing a light windbreaker.
Your story illustrates that the church must out reach, have some fun and help people year round not just only put on a big show at Christmas.
We also need to realize that the social needs (friendship)of all people not just the poor. People are searching for friends and fun. If the church does not provide fun, interesting social activities along with bible studies, for all ages, then very few people will attend church. Their must be a balanced approach to life in churches.
The message remains the same but the methods must adapt to the times. Even Queen Elizabeth is adapting to the times. Her message will be on You Tube this year.
We must all question the methods that our churches are using. Change happens in the church often very slowly. That is why people are leaving the organized church. If the church won't adapt and you are not allowed to question it's methods we have lots of alternatives. The internet has allowed people to broadcast the message and their own viewpoint almost free of charge.
Questioning is good. Never go to a church where you are not allowed to ask questions.
That is what these blogs are all about. Questioning the reasons why we do things, are they effective, are they working, are we successful, can we do better, are their other methods that would be better, how should we change our approach?
If at first you don't succeed perhaps you need to try another method.
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