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This is an old long time friend of Eric Nabutete. I lost touch with him over the last year – I’m glad to hear he is doing well. It would be great to hear from you Eric – my email address is mark@bromnet.com – you can also visit my website http://www.markbrombacher.com

Like any arguement, it’s persuasiveness is dependant upon it’s foundational premise.

For me Brian, your supposition (B) is inaccurate. Satan, not God, is the tormentor and torturer. His accomplice is our free will. Hence accountability.

Jesus does not condemn so much as the free will chooses. Judgement then, simply confers right consequence upon the previously expressed choice.

Kingdom building, ought to be about equipping mankind with the right understanding of Godliness, so that each are able to freely choose that which is of God and to reject that which isn’t.

While words are important. Good works create a more lasting and honest expression of what Jesus manifest in us, should look like.

Still, as I understand God, whether by means of grace and prosperity, redemptive suffering or despair, dark paths or well lit ways; salvation is the ultimate objective.

Jesus came, suffered and died so that the gates of heaven would be open to us. That we might be reconciled with our father in heaven. Everything that is good then must point the way to salvation. Actions, no matter how appealing and worthy, that don’t redeem, that don’t as a consequence of their expression lead to the Father through Jesus, might be better left undone.

Not that failing to act won’t leave us ashamed and heartbroken, on the contrary, perhaps that is intentional; part of the lesson to be learned. Still if we continue to try to effect goodwill and ease suffering apart from the message of salvation, what real good have we done?

Everything that is of God, will leave us feeling at peace, bring His peace to others and strengthen our understanding of His will for our lives.

It would be better I believe if we moved away from theological understandings and expressions that synthesize pluralism and Christianity. It is well past time for Christians to reconcile as one faith family.

There is just one Jesus. There is just one word, there should be just one community, just one church. The multiplicity of Christian expression, is it the face of Christ? Or the face of ego?

There is a hell Brian and as the domain of darkness and the evil one, I doubt I could even begin to imagine its horror or grotesqueness, much less put those images into words.

What I do know is that through faith in God, by our best and most honest imitation of the the life of Jesus, we can be saved.

His love and grace will carry us home. We just have to choose.

I’ve always had fun with the concept of “one person’s hell is another person’s heaven”. So what if I live my whole life only with the idea of going to heaven in the end, then find out that in heaven I have to eat cream cheese all day because that’s someone else’s idea of heaven. That would be hell for me, I hate that sour stuff! Eight years of abuse in the Catholic Schools made me realize that you don’t have to wait until you die to be in hell. AND that some forms of so-called Christianity seem to want you to live your life in hell so you’ll be worthy of heaven after you die. Sounds like manipulation to me! Do what I tell you and I won’t make you burn in hell.

This cynic doesn’t worry about where she will go after she dies. At least then she will no longer have to serve Mammon. But she tries, with various degrees of success, to carry the kIngdom within her and share it with others. Just TELLING others to live thus-and-so is worthless. You have to try to LIVE so that others will see God in your light. By their fruits you will know them!

Just in closing, I’d like to remind everyone that if your only experience of the Scripture is in hearing it from someone else, or reading short passages, then you need to sit down and read the book from cover to cover. Several times. In modern English. Read two different versions and compare! Read it straight through or skip around, but make sure you read it all. You have to know the story before you can tell it to others! Thanks, Brian, for making me aware of this story we find ourselves in!

Reita Lou

George

Thanks again for the good dialogue. Keep up the great work, Jordon. You’ve got a great site and a great group of people gathering here.

Shane asked …
Do you believe in Hell?
– Shane, I believe in Jesus, and I believe in everything he said, but I don’t believe that we all (myself included) accurately understand everything he said, including what he said about hell. That’s what my book tries to explore.
Do you believe in the accuracy of Luke 16:19-31?
– Yes, of course! But I wonder if you believe what this passage seems to teach – that rich people go to hell, and poor people to Abraham’s bosom? I raise that question to point out that these things aren’t as simple as many people make them sound.

Are you a universalist?
– No.

Also – someone remarked about the irony of writing a book on hell saying we’re overpreoccupied with hell. That is ironic, you’re right … but actually, the book isn’t really about hell primarily. It’s about our view of God, and our understanding of the gospel. Thanks again, everyone, for some great dialogue!

2Tim 3:12-(I’m Not at all saying anyone of you is making me feel persecuted in any way.) I just want us all to see that this idea of promising a happier/easier life… is a LIE. Show ‘em why they need a savior then when they believe, disciple them so that they’ll persevere through all of the difficulties of living in a place that’s not their home. Give them an eternal perspective so that when they are poor in spirit, weeping, mourning, meek, hungry, having men hate exclude and insult them them because of Christ, they will be able to “Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their fathers treated the prophets.”
Excuse my frankness that follows, but, we’re all grown-ups here, and I’m wanting to make a point. Before I was a Christian (Got saved three years ago at age 27), I was making six figures, taking trips and having sex with models for fun. Literally. If you had tried to sell me some garbage about a better life I would have laughed in your face. But when people at Hill Country Bible Church loved me enough to tell me that there was a fence, and I was on the wrong side of it, and show me that I desperately needed a Savior…not to escape the beautiful girls or the fun, but so that I could have assurance that I “shall not perish but have eternal life”. I CAME RUNNING! And the Greatness of my Salvation through Jesus Christ is why I’m still running! EVEN when Christian life sucks sometimes. That’s the good news! What was God’s great redemtive work? That He saved me from the pleasures of sin? Or that He made me right with Him so that I shall never perish, but have eternal life?
I’m actively sharing my faith because of the latter! I’m excited because of the latter! I’m not going to even have to dip my big toe in any lake of fire because Jesus Christ died on the cross for me! Praise Him!
If we confuse the gospel message we open the door for false conversions. People who are genuinely praying for a better life without any acknowledgment of what Christ really accomplished for mankind. People who will decide that they’ve been lied to when the sin is still there. People who’ll assume that God either doesn’t really exist or that He doesn’t care about them because he didn’t answer their prayer for a better life. Those of you reading: Take 40 minutes to listen to Hell’s Best Kept Secret By Ray Comfort. It’s free on his web site. He does a wonderful job of explaining the necessity of showing people that they need a savior before they’ll decide they want one. How many people do you run into that think that they are bad and need to be rescued because of just how bad they are? NOT MANY. If they are at that point, tell ‘em about Jesus and what He’s done. But if they are like 90% of those that I talk to, thinking that they deserve Heaven, love them enough to look past their self righteousness and show them the rules that they’ve broken, why they need a Savior and then the Good news of Jesus!
Brian,
Do you believe in Hell?
Do you believe in the accuracy of Luke 16:19-31?
Are you a universalist?

My question at this point is about letter H: “All people will face judgment. God is always both just and merciful in judgment. Being judged does not necessarily mean “being sent to hell.” Nor does being condemned. These words mean being exposed for being disobedient to God, not pleasing God, not serving God.”

I apologized if I missed it somewhere in the conversation, but I’m wondering what happens, according to this line of thinking, to people who are judged to be “disobedient to God”?

What you’re saying here sounds an awful lot like Isaiah 1, where Israel is called to repentance. My question for you is this…how do you understand the times in which we live?
Isaiah was speaking to a people on the verge of exile…Is it possible for the church to enter into exile now? Are we already in exile?

-Jordan

I’d still like the above comment to stand simply as part of a conversation on hell nonetheless. I really appreciate Brian’s boldness in addressing this topic. Scripture is pretty unclear on the topic. Furthermore, I think a lot of current science could open up new perspectives on hell. For example, the eternal / annihilation debate around hell kinda goes away in light of things like black holes… but I digress.

Like many of us out “here”: thank you so much for thinking and writing. Your first book really released me from the judgements of my co-workers (I’m in “Christian work”). I look forward to reading your newest book, but for now I can only comment on your bullet points.

Anyway, I think you are dead on target with point K. The Kingdom of God is here. Let’s focus on the rule of Christ in our hearts, our community, and in as much of the world we can touch. Jesus Himself declares that it all boils down to loving God and loving our neighbor… not fearing hell.

However, it seems that your belief in a non-literal hell is grounded in the perception that God is too nice to inflict that type of punishment on His own creation. God doesn’t seem very nice throughout the Old Testament. I don’t think He’s nice myself. He is powerful and passionate. His wrath is exceeded by His intense love, or as a Muslim freind of mine once said, “His wrath is only exceeded by His mercy”.

It would be hard for me to tell one of our Christian brothers in southern Sudan that he is experiencing abundant life in Jesus while the men that raped and killed his wife are suffering some kind of spiritual hell of angst in their comfortable homes in Khartoum. I think its easy for us Western Christians to think about heaven and hell being a state of mind given the insane comfort in which we live. But for our brothers in places like Sudan and China- actually a majority of Christiandom- to say that heaven and hell are metaphors almost seems insulting. Without literal heaven and hell, where is the sense of hope and justice for our brothers that suffer and pour out their lives for Christ?

I also don’t understand the need for the cross if there isn’t a literal hell. Wasn’t Calvary the ultimate destination of Christ’s life?

Keep thinking, grokking, and writing! I’m looking forward to getting and reading your book (it may take a while since I’m living out in Budapest).

Irony – Writing a book about hell which argues that we should not be so preoccupied with the issue of hell.

Great book – a fitting end to the trilogy!

A. for me – our view of hell has a lot to say about our view of God (and vice versa)

We (the church/believers) have definitely made God all about Heaven & Hell).

You said, “we are in pretty bad shape if getting people out of hell is the only point of the person and work of Jesus that we can think of.” (p 187)

There has to be more to salvation than getting into or getting out of one place or another.

Thanks for getting us thinking afresh on our view of God.

Steve

When I try to say thank you for your writing – the books I’ve read and what they have meant to my life, I am lacking enough words.

I had given up on experiencing such a thing though and was just following Jesus-of-no-fixed-address when I came across a community that really lives this stuff: The Freeway in Hamilton. (Pernell, the pastor – leader – Tour Guide – whatever, posted above.) I’m lacking words there too. I’ll just say they’re the real thing and they throw a drowning man a line and I love them.

Thanks Brian. I wouldn’t have known what to look for if you hadn’t written.

Steve

my apologies on the last post. my fingers were not in sync with my brain and I changed your name for you.

silly me…

Your points, as usual, are very thought provoking. Point K is a great summary:

K. We need to rethink the message of Jesus and the apostles in terms of the kingdom of God – which is God’s will being done on earth, and not be so preoccupied with the issue of hell.

I have never heard the kingdom of God being referred to as anything but heaven. I love your points and I know I will ponder over them for a while.

Everytime I have heard the word hell, it comes with a big Bible thump right behind it telling some poor, lonely, brokenhearted individual that unless they say a 15 second prayer they are going to hell.

I do believe in an eternal hell. But using it in a “pray or be dangled over the pits of hell” is a false presentation of the Gospel.

The Gospel is full of love, hope, joy, and yes salvation. That salvation is deliverance from a life apart from Christ. Not salvation from hell.

Keep up the great work Brian. Your books are awesome!

Thanks Jordan for posting this.

What about the places where it says that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom?

Brian, I also would like to ask if your book is being translated in French. God knows we need to have this material reach the French-speaking Church in Canada, Quebec, Europe, Africa, etc., to encourgae a conversation about these topics which can be difficult…

If you’re looking into it, send me an email and we can discuss it. I am native from Quebec and do translation. Would love to.

It’s like, what’s the use of loving us so much as to give His only begotten Son, if not to also avoid that we perish, eternally separated from Him? It’s more than living a good inspiring life down here (many religions and movements can help you do that, denying Christ in the process).

I don’t like “Frankenstein Evangelism (confess Christ today or you’ll go to hell tonight if you die without praying the sinner’s prayer). But in the end, we were taught to understand that there will come a time of separation.

I live my life now more in the light of a relationship with God, through Christ, empowered to progressive holy living through the virtue of the Holy Spirit in me.

How can I live this out so that I know I am understanding something of God’s passion for us, and responding to His passion for me, in a way that allows me to also point the Way to others in a very real way?

I enjoy this conversation happening worldwide, and hope we’ll be hiting the fan once and for all, and not just create a “new form” of Chstianity that fits our generation, but will be able to finally distill the main core of it so that it will be transmissible from one generation to the next without all the mess-up that has happened over the centuries.

Is God really OK with all the denominational idiosyncrasies that involve blatant heresies, is He OK with the mixture?

Blessings,

You allude to the ‘abundant life’ and that it is a reality here and now.
My difficulty with that is where?
Where do you suggest we look to find this and learn it? I know that Jesus presented it…but what does it look like now in North America in 2005?

– Jordan, this is an incredibly important question. This is what “spiritual formation” is all about … helping people be formed into the kinds of people who experience and practice and convey abundant life. This is what I’ve been learning, little by little, for about thirty years.

I think it looks like justice (seeking justice for the poor, needy, oppressed, in whatever small or large ways we can – as Mother Teresa said, little things done with great love can change the world), peace (living in reconciled relationships with others – Christians, nonChristians, atheists, Buddhists, Iraqis, everyone we can), and joy (which flows from gratitude and other spiritual disciplines) in the Holy Spirit. A lot more could be said. Maybe others can chime in on this.

Sadly, too many of our religious institutions aren’t focused on answering this important question!

As for me, I’m afraid of hell. I grew up in a Bible Church and switched over to a Charismatic church with my family in the 6th grade. Since that time I’ve been in Vineyard churches, a PAOC church, a Bretheren church and now an Alliance church (I’ve moved a lot) which all focus to a greater degree on grace, but that childhood nightmare of hell in it’s “classic” sense still terrifies me, and as much as I hear and embrace and believe the message of grace I am occasionally stunned to realize that I am terrified of “going” to hell myself!

I love Jesus. I am a lifelong believer who has had Bible training, attended small groups, taught in children’s and youth ministries, and worked with Young Life, and still, even now, I have moments of terror.

Jesus came to give life, and living in terror is not evidence of that. We need a new understanding of grace, salvation, and of hell.