This came to me from Brian McLaren via his publishing company. Brian will be checking in on the comments and answering any questions you have. I am working today and will be offline (it is 6:23 here in Saskatchewan) until later so have fun while I am gone.
Everything below this are Brian’s words. Thanks to Brian for stopping by and thanks to all of you for participating.
Hi, everyone – it’s an honor to be your guest and have a bit of conversation about my newest book, “The Last Word and the Word After That.”
For those of you who haven’t read the book, here are some of the main ideas:
A. Our view of hell has a lot to say about our view of God (and vice versa).
B. For many people, hell means that God torments or tortures people consciously and forever, with no possibility of repentance and no possibility for an end to the tortures.
C. This view of God, I believe, is unworthy of the God presented to us in Jesus Christ.
D. The conventional understanding of hell developed over a long period of time. It wasn’t revealed in the Old Testament, but arose in the period between Testaments. When Jesus speaks of it, he hasn’t invented it, but rather is responding to it as a controversial idea among the Jewish people of his day.
E. The Sadducees were the conservatives who held to the older view that there was no hell or no afterlife. The Pharisees were, in a sense, the liberals who accepted the idea of hell. Many believe that the idea of hell came into Judaism from Persian religion – and that the name Pharisee may be from Farsi, or Persian.
F. Jesus does not follow either the Sadducees (who reject any idea of afterlife), nor does he follow the teaching of the Pharisees and their view of hell. Rather, he charts a bold new path and uses the language of hell (“owned” by the Pharisees) to draw attention to his own message – centered in the kingdom of God, and the character of God.
G. “The kingdom of God” does not mean heaven. Being excluded from the kingdom does not necessarily mean eternal conscious torment after death in hell either.
H. All people will face judgment. God is always both just and merciful in judgment. Being judged does not necessarily mean “being sent to hell.” Nor does being condemned. These words mean being exposed for being disobedient to God, not pleasing God, not serving God.
I. Matthew speaks the most about hell, Mark and Luke, less, and John not at all. Paul speaks often of the reality of judgment, but he doesn’t talk about hell. The New Testament is not as clear about the subject as many people believe.
K. We need to rethink the message of Jesus and the apostles in terms of the kingdom of God – which is God’s will being done on earth, and not be so preoccupied with the issue of hell.
There’s a lot more — but that’s a good start. I’m interested in knowing which of these ideas are most exciting, troubling, believable or unbelievable for you, and why.
____________________
Continue to read the other blogs that Brian is stopping in to visit and chat on.
hi jordon
lots of good stuff to talk about. i will shoot some readers over there from my blog conversation.
Andrew, was just in the process to linking to the other blogs when your comments beat me too it (it’s early here in Saskatchewan). Am sending some traffic back to you. Pax.
Brian,
Why evangelize then?
Kevin
Fort Worth
Brian, I like your take on all this! The concept of eternal torment has always been troubling to me, too. But, what do you do with the “wailing and gnashing of teeth” language? Was Jesus just kidding or being metaphorical? It’s also hard for me to be that dismissive with his words!
Grace and peace,
Greg
I’d like to think that we evangelize because Jesus commanded us to, that life with Jesus is far more beautiful that the hopelessness of life without.
Hey Brian,
First of all, thank you for your time here at the centre of the blog universe – Jordon’s place.
“K” is the idea that most excites me.
I know many people (and churches) whose experience of Christianity is not unlike purchasing a ticket and waiting in the airport waiting room for the flight home. Only seldomly sending out a few (usually paid, “specialized”) persons to recruit other specially-selected travellers who then “get cleaned up”, “close the deal” and “purchase a ticket or else you-know-what” and join in the waiting.
Meanwhile, I think that God and his kingdom have little or nothing to do with waiting rooms, segregation, deal-closing and ticket purchasing. He is outside the airport too… in the city… amidst the people, the culture… doing his thing called Love.
“K” speaks to me of re-thinking:
- deal-closing | journey
- individualism | community
- consumerism | truth
- the seperation of “evangelism” and “discipleship”
- how we read and understand the scriptures
- and a whole bunch more
Sorry I rambled a bit. I could go on and on… but I won’t.
Thank you for your book and for raising these issues for us to re-think.
Peace.
Hi, all -
Thanks, Jordon, for the chance to visit! For some reason, I’m unable to log in, so I’ve asked Greg to post this for me. I’ll check back later this afternoon.
OK … why evangelize?
1. Jesus told me to. That’s reason enough.
2. People are like sheep without a shepherd. They aren’t living the abundant life. If they follow Jesus, they’ll find life.
3. The world is in a mess. Without good news, it’s going to self-destruct. Jesus teaches and exemplifies the way to a better life, not only for individuals, but for the planet.
What about “weeping and gnashing of teeth?”
The possibility is real that people (and groups of people) can waste their lives, play on the wrong side, fight against God, frustrate God’s grace, get in the way, cause others to suffer, miss out on life’s best joys (like the joy of giving). One of the primary meanings of hell language is regret over wasted potential, missed opportunities. I’m NOT a universalist in the sense of saying, “Look, everybody is going to heaven, so it doesn’t matter what you believe or how you live.” I hope that my line of thinking leads to a greater sense of accountability (especially among those Christians who seem to think because they have the right beliefs it’s impossible for them to face regret for how they’ve lived their lives).
HTH – Brian
Brian you can click on the post a comment and then if blogger won’t let you sign in choose ‘other’ and it will let you sign your name their.
Brian, thanks for the work that you do and sharing your journey with us.
I’m completely with you on being less preoccupied with Hell and a re-examination of the Kingdom of Heaven.
I passionately engage people with the good news that Jesus offers today, having life before death – and not just after, and Jesus saving us not only from our sins, but from a life of meaninglessness…
…however, I am challenged to more tightly integrate this with other Bible basics, ie. sin, atonement, final states… otherwise I get a sense Jesus becomes reduced to a dr. phil, oprah, self-help, make-the-world-a-better-place guru.
How would you articulate the necessity for the work of Christ, beyond his teachings, and its relationship with our response and eternal states? Hope that makes sense.
Bonjour Brian,
Thanks for stopping by today. You certainly force us to dig right into thinking deeper about issues.
I am really challenged by what you said about hell. Are you saying there will be NO definite demarcation between righteous and unrighteous?
How much can we soften up Matthew 25 : “41″Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
Are we not to take into account all the other passages mentioning hell, eternal fire, eternal separation from the presence of God, Hades, etc.? Isn’t salvation a demarcation, made visible by a life bearing fruits of repentance?
Thanks for taking time to shed some light on this…
Blessings,
Brian,
I appreciate what you’re saying and have found myself thinking along the same lines.
You allude to the ‘abundant life’ and that it is a reality here and now.
My difficulty with that is where?
Where do you suggest we look to find this and learn it? I know that Jesus presented it…but what does it look like now in North America in 2005?
-jordan
Brian …
(K) definitely gets my blood flowing and seems to be a logical conclusion flowing out of (A) through (J). I wholeheartedly believe that we need to rethink the message of Jesus in terms of the kingdom of God. My question is, how do we effectively and meaningfully communicate this with those who adamently believe that the doctrine of hell is fundamental to the Christian faith? Is there a manner in which we can approach this which will invite and encourage dialogue on this? Or are we basically destined for continuing clashes?
er … perhaps I should have said that (K) is a logical conclusion flowing out of (A) through (I) since there doesn’t seem to be a (J) now that I look back.
Cheers.
Hi, all – here are two more replies …
1….however, I am challenged to more tightly integrate this with other Bible basics, ie. sin, atonement, final states… otherwise I get a sense Jesus becomes reduced to a dr. phil, oprah, self-help, make-the-world-a-better-place guru.
How would you articulate the necessity for the work of Christ, beyond his teachings, and its relationship with our response and eternal states? Hope that makes sense.
By Lon, at 9:57 AM
– Good question. I try to answer this a bit in “A Generous Orthodoxy” in my chapter on “seven Jesuses.” Let me sum it like this. As a trinitarian, I believe Jesus is God incarnate. So, the kingdom of God has Jesus as its king. A king doesn’t rule by teachings alone. A king rules by presence, involvement, example, action, intervention, motivation, etc. So Jesus is absolutely essential, not just for one thing (whether his teaching, his shed blood, or whatever) … he is essential for all things that he is and does as our king. He is everything to me.
2. Bonjour Brian,
Thanks for stopping by today. You certainly force us to dig right into thinking deeper about issues.
I am really challenged by what you said about hell. Are you saying there will be NO definite demarcation between righteous and unrighteous?
– NO! I’m not saying that at all! In fact, I’m saying the very opposite! Thanks so much for asking for clarification here. I’d hate for anybody to have this misconception!
How much can we soften up Matthew 25 : “41″Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
– I don’t want to soften that up at all! But here’s what’s interesting: Matthew 25 doesn’t say, “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me … for you never prayed to ask me into your heart, you never confessed me as your Lord and Savior, you never said the sinner’s prayer, you never walked the aisle, you never identified yourself as a born-again-Bible-believin’ Christian.”
–So the conventional view doesn’t really deal with this text as well as I do, I’d say!!!
Are we not to take into account all the other passages mentioning hell, eternal fire, eternal separation from the presence of God, Hades, etc.? Isn’t salvation a demarcation, made visible by a life bearing fruits of repentance?
– I took a whole book to answer this question … We need to take every one of those passages seriously. I don’t think the conventional view does so. And yes … salvation is more than fire insurance: it is being healed from a sin-sick life so that we can live a healthy, fruitful life, just as you say.
HTH everyone! More later …
Hi Brian,
Thanks for taking the time to do this and having the courage to bring these ideas out for discussion! I started talking about some of the ideas in your book with friends a few months before it was released and found it very helpful. I was thinking about it again last night and found myself a little frightened. I noticed that I have stopped trying to convince people that my faith is true and real and instead talking about it with them, showing them why I believe it to be real through my actions. I decided to simply stop obsessing over the destiny of those I know and leave that up to God. I strive to build the world that He dreams of….that we all dream of and engage the help of others to do the same. Part of me loves this idea and way of life but part of me is still very unsure. I love Jesus with all my heart and it saddens me to see so many friends living without Him, not knowing what they are missing. I want for all of them what I have but even if that doesn’t happen, I still wan’t all of us to be a part of building His Kingdom here on earth…..but still sharing in God’s Heavenly kingdom. What do you think?
Thank you for talking about hell! We need some dialogue on the subject.
As for me, I’m afraid of hell. I grew up in a Bible Church and switched over to a Charismatic church with my family in the 6th grade. Since that time I’ve been in Vineyard churches, a PAOC church, a Bretheren church and now an Alliance church (I’ve moved a lot) which all focus to a greater degree on grace, but that childhood nightmare of hell in it’s “classic” sense still terrifies me, and as much as I hear and embrace and believe the message of grace I am occasionally stunned to realize that I am terrified of “going” to hell myself!
I love Jesus. I am a lifelong believer who has had Bible training, attended small groups, taught in children’s and youth ministries, and worked with Young Life, and still, even now, I have moments of terror.
Jesus came to give life, and living in terror is not evidence of that. We need a new understanding of grace, salvation, and of hell.
Jordan asked …
You allude to the ‘abundant life’ and that it is a reality here and now.
My difficulty with that is where?
Where do you suggest we look to find this and learn it? I know that Jesus presented it…but what does it look like now in North America in 2005?
– Jordan, this is an incredibly important question. This is what “spiritual formation” is all about … helping people be formed into the kinds of people who experience and practice and convey abundant life. This is what I’ve been learning, little by little, for about thirty years.
I think it looks like justice (seeking justice for the poor, needy, oppressed, in whatever small or large ways we can – as Mother Teresa said, little things done with great love can change the world), peace (living in reconciled relationships with others – Christians, nonChristians, atheists, Buddhists, Iraqis, everyone we can), and joy (which flows from gratitude and other spiritual disciplines) in the Holy Spirit. A lot more could be said. Maybe others can chime in on this.
Sadly, too many of our religious institutions aren’t focused on answering this important question!
Shiz – thanks for your honest comment. I wrote the book exactly for people like you. I love that line in 1 John … “God is light and in him there is no darkness at all.” Sadly, the way hell is often taught it makes us fear that God has a dark side … which leaves us with terror, as you say. But that’s a lie. There is no darkness in God at all. God is good. All good. Better than the best human parent. Isn’t it interesting how angels in the Bible are always saying, “Fear not!”?
A little clarification on my question/comment. Could this be too soft or disinterested of a viewpoint to have? Could we/I somehow be avoiding our obligation to ‘go into the world and make disciples’by living life in this way?
Henri Nouwen in his wonderful little book “Lifesigns” states that the movement Jesus invites us to is from the house of fear to the house of faith.. in a world with so much “homelessness” (spiritual and emotion and not only physical) its a powerful message… That movement itself is a journey, even while it is “accomplished in the heavens,” and we struggle to both realize our new identity and to work it out in the world .. to enflesh it in peace, justice and love. Great book Brian thanks for the courage to write it!
Thanks for taking time to reply, Brian. I sure need to read a bit more on that. Hell has been a final destination in my Christian paradigm for decades.
It’s like, what’s the use of loving us so much as to give His only begotten Son, if not to also avoid that we perish, eternally separated from Him? It’s more than living a good inspiring life down here (many religions and movements can help you do that, denying Christ in the process).
I don’t like “Frankenstein Evangelism (confess Christ today or you’ll go to hell tonight if you die without praying the sinner’s prayer). But in the end, we were taught to understand that there will come a time of separation.
I live my life now more in the light of a relationship with God, through Christ, empowered to progressive holy living through the virtue of the Holy Spirit in me.
How can I live this out so that I know I am understanding something of God’s passion for us, and responding to His passion for me, in a way that allows me to also point the Way to others in a very real way?
I enjoy this conversation happening worldwide, and hope we’ll be hiting the fan once and for all, and not just create a “new form” of Chstianity that fits our generation, but will be able to finally distill the main core of it so that it will be transmissible from one generation to the next without all the mess-up that has happened over the centuries.
Is God really OK with all the denominational idiosyncrasies that involve blatant heresies, is He OK with the mixture?
Blessings,
Your book in French???
Brian, I also would like to ask if your book is being translated in French. God knows we need to have this material reach the French-speaking Church in Canada, Quebec, Europe, Africa, etc., to encourgae a conversation about these topics which can be difficult…
If you’re looking into it, send me an email and we can discuss it. I am native from Quebec and do translation. Would love to.
Isn’t it interesting how angels in the Bible are always saying, “Fear not!”?
What about the places where it says that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom?
Brian,
Your points, as usual, are very thought provoking. Point K is a great summary:
K. We need to rethink the message of Jesus and the apostles in terms of the kingdom of God – which is God’s will being done on earth, and not be so preoccupied with the issue of hell.
I have never heard the kingdom of God being referred to as anything but heaven. I love your points and I know I will ponder over them for a while.
Everytime I have heard the word hell, it comes with a big Bible thump right behind it telling some poor, lonely, brokenhearted individual that unless they say a 15 second prayer they are going to hell.
I do believe in an eternal hell. But using it in a “pray or be dangled over the pits of hell” is a false presentation of the Gospel.
The Gospel is full of love, hope, joy, and yes salvation. That salvation is deliverance from a life apart from Christ. Not salvation from hell.
Keep up the great work Brian. Your books are awesome!
Thanks Jordan for posting this.
Jordon…
my apologies on the last post. my fingers were not in sync with my brain and I changed your name for you.
silly me…
Brian,
When I try to say thank you for your writing – the books I’ve read and what they have meant to my life, I am lacking enough words.
I had given up on experiencing such a thing though and was just following Jesus-of-no-fixed-address when I came across a community that really lives this stuff: The Freeway in Hamilton. (Pernell, the pastor – leader – Tour Guide – whatever, posted above.) I’m lacking words there too. I’ll just say they’re the real thing and they throw a drowning man a line and I love them.
Thanks Brian. I wouldn’t have known what to look for if you hadn’t written.
Steve
Hi Brian,
Great book – a fitting end to the trilogy!
A. for me – our view of hell has a lot to say about our view of God (and vice versa)
We (the church/believers) have definitely made God all about Heaven & Hell).
You said, “we are in pretty bad shape if getting people out of hell is the only point of the person and work of Jesus that we can think of.” (p 187)
There has to be more to salvation than getting into or getting out of one place or another.
Thanks for getting us thinking afresh on our view of God.
Steve
“K. We need to rethink the message of Jesus and the apostles in terms of the kingdom of God – which is God’s will being done on earth, and not be so preoccupied with the issue of hell”
Irony – Writing a book about hell which argues that we should not be so preoccupied with the issue of hell.
Brian-
Like many of us out “here”: thank you so much for thinking and writing. Your first book really released me from the judgements of my co-workers (I’m in “Christian work”). I look forward to reading your newest book, but for now I can only comment on your bullet points.
Anyway, I think you are dead on target with point K. The Kingdom of God is here. Let’s focus on the rule of Christ in our hearts, our community, and in as much of the world we can touch. Jesus Himself declares that it all boils down to loving God and loving our neighbor… not fearing hell.
However, it seems that your belief in a non-literal hell is grounded in the perception that God is too nice to inflict that type of punishment on His own creation. God doesn’t seem very nice throughout the Old Testament. I don’t think He’s nice myself. He is powerful and passionate. His wrath is exceeded by His intense love, or as a Muslim freind of mine once said, “His wrath is only exceeded by His mercy”.
It would be hard for me to tell one of our Christian brothers in southern Sudan that he is experiencing abundant life in Jesus while the men that raped and killed his wife are suffering some kind of spiritual hell of angst in their comfortable homes in Khartoum. I think its easy for us Western Christians to think about heaven and hell being a state of mind given the insane comfort in which we live. But for our brothers in places like Sudan and China- actually a majority of Christiandom- to say that heaven and hell are metaphors almost seems insulting. Without literal heaven and hell, where is the sense of hope and justice for our brothers that suffer and pour out their lives for Christ?
I also don’t understand the need for the cross if there isn’t a literal hell. Wasn’t Calvary the ultimate destination of Christ’s life?
Keep thinking, grokking, and writing! I’m looking forward to getting and reading your book (it may take a while since I’m living out in Budapest).
Clarification/Apology: I didn’t read your (Brian’s) points closely (just woke up and started blogging- dangerous thing before coffee) and you actually never say that you believe that hell is non-leteral / only a “state of mind”. I apologize for the false accusation.
I’d still like the above comment to stand simply as part of a conversation on hell nonetheless. I really appreciate Brian’s boldness in addressing this topic. Scripture is pretty unclear on the topic. Furthermore, I think a lot of current science could open up new perspectives on hell. For example, the eternal / annihilation debate around hell kinda goes away in light of things like black holes… but I digress.
Brian wrote — “I think it looks like justice (seeking justice for the poor, needy, oppressed, in whatever small or large ways we can – as Mother Teresa said, little things done with great love can change the world), peace (living in reconciled relationships with others – Christians, nonChristians, atheists, Buddhists, Iraqis, everyone we can), and joy (which flows from gratitude and other spiritual disciplines) in the Holy Spirit”
What you’re saying here sounds an awful lot like Isaiah 1, where Israel is called to repentance. My question for you is this…how do you understand the times in which we live?
Isaiah was speaking to a people on the verge of exile…Is it possible for the church to enter into exile now? Are we already in exile?
-Jordan
Thanks, Brian, for the blog tour! Great idea. (I haven’t read the book yet, but I look forward to doing so when I get a chance. I agree it’s something we need to critically reflect on.)
My question at this point is about letter H: “All people will face judgment. God is always both just and merciful in judgment. Being judged does not necessarily mean “being sent to hell.” Nor does being condemned. These words mean being exposed for being disobedient to God, not pleasing God, not serving God.”
I apologized if I missed it somewhere in the conversation, but I’m wondering what happens, according to this line of thinking, to people who are judged to be “disobedient to God”?
I wonder if some guys are working on a new translation in which they leave out Romans 2. That’d be extra relevant wouldn’t it!
Let’s spend a couple of minutes celebrating Eric Nabutete’s salvation. God saved him Sunday night at Stillpoint! Praise God! Eternal Salvation! He’s using us all to bring Salvation!
Rom 1:16
2Tim 3:12-(I’m Not at all saying anyone of you is making me feel persecuted in any way.) I just want us all to see that this idea of promising a happier/easier life… is a LIE. Show ‘em why they need a savior then when they believe, disciple them so that they’ll persevere through all of the difficulties of living in a place that’s not their home. Give them an eternal perspective so that when they are poor in spirit, weeping, mourning, meek, hungry, having men hate exclude and insult them them because of Christ, they will be able to “Rejoice in that day and leap for joy, because great is your reward in heaven. For that is how their fathers treated the prophets.”
Excuse my frankness that follows, but, we’re all grown-ups here, and I’m wanting to make a point. Before I was a Christian (Got saved three years ago at age 27), I was making six figures, taking trips and having sex with models for fun. Literally. If you had tried to sell me some garbage about a better life I would have laughed in your face. But when people at Hill Country Bible Church loved me enough to tell me that there was a fence, and I was on the wrong side of it, and show me that I desperately needed a Savior…not to escape the beautiful girls or the fun, but so that I could have assurance that I “shall not perish but have eternal life”. I CAME RUNNING! And the Greatness of my Salvation through Jesus Christ is why I’m still running! EVEN when Christian life sucks sometimes. That’s the good news! What was God’s great redemtive work? That He saved me from the pleasures of sin? Or that He made me right with Him so that I shall never perish, but have eternal life?
I’m actively sharing my faith because of the latter! I’m excited because of the latter! I’m not going to even have to dip my big toe in any lake of fire because Jesus Christ died on the cross for me! Praise Him!
If we confuse the gospel message we open the door for false conversions. People who are genuinely praying for a better life without any acknowledgment of what Christ really accomplished for mankind. People who will decide that they’ve been lied to when the sin is still there. People who’ll assume that God either doesn’t really exist or that He doesn’t care about them because he didn’t answer their prayer for a better life. Those of you reading: Take 40 minutes to listen to Hell’s Best Kept Secret By Ray Comfort. It’s free on his web site. He does a wonderful job of explaining the necessity of showing people that they need a savior before they’ll decide they want one. How many people do you run into that think that they are bad and need to be rescued because of just how bad they are? NOT MANY. If they are at that point, tell ‘em about Jesus and what He’s done. But if they are like 90% of those that I talk to, thinking that they deserve Heaven, love them enough to look past their self righteousness and show them the rules that they’ve broken, why they need a Savior and then the Good news of Jesus!
Brian,
Do you believe in Hell?
Do you believe in the accuracy of Luke 16:19-31?
Are you a universalist?
Hi, all – I just stopped by to see if there were any more comments today.
Thanks again for the good dialogue. Keep up the great work, Jordon. You’ve got a great site and a great group of people gathering here.
Shane asked …
Do you believe in Hell?
– Shane, I believe in Jesus, and I believe in everything he said, but I don’t believe that we all (myself included) accurately understand everything he said, including what he said about hell. That’s what my book tries to explore.
Do you believe in the accuracy of Luke 16:19-31?
– Yes, of course! But I wonder if you believe what this passage seems to teach – that rich people go to hell, and poor people to Abraham’s bosom? I raise that question to point out that these things aren’t as simple as many people make them sound.
Are you a universalist?
– No.
Also – someone remarked about the irony of writing a book on hell saying we’re overpreoccupied with hell. That is ironic, you’re right … but actually, the book isn’t really about hell primarily. It’s about our view of God, and our understanding of the gospel. Thanks again, everyone, for some great dialogue!
Right on Shane, its good to see at least one person not fooled by Brian’s easy believism theology.
George
Thanks George! We’ve got to protect the communication of the gospel! The Church has been suffering for years from the effect of this fasle gospel that if life stinks you just need Jesus to come into your life and you’ll have happiness and peace. The result is NOT salvation. It’s someone genuinely hitting their knees and praying for a better life…and muttering the words savior and Jesus in there somewhere.
Did you check out Brian’s responses to my questons? Clear as mud!
He didn’t comment at all on the few hundred words I wrote before the direct questions to him.
Steve Winwood was right. Heaven is in your mind. The Kingdom of God is within us. And hell is in your mind too. NOBODY knows what’s on the other side of death. You can’t live your life just to die and go to heaven. We have to stop worrying about heaven and hell on the other side and see what we can do to make this earthly life less like hell and more like heaven.
I’ve always had fun with the concept of “one person’s hell is another person’s heaven”. So what if I live my whole life only with the idea of going to heaven in the end, then find out that in heaven I have to eat cream cheese all day because that’s someone else’s idea of heaven. That would be hell for me, I hate that sour stuff! Eight years of abuse in the Catholic Schools made me realize that you don’t have to wait until you die to be in hell. AND that some forms of so-called Christianity seem to want you to live your life in hell so you’ll be worthy of heaven after you die. Sounds like manipulation to me! Do what I tell you and I won’t make you burn in hell.
This cynic doesn’t worry about where she will go after she dies. At least then she will no longer have to serve Mammon. But she tries, with various degrees of success, to carry the kIngdom within her and share it with others. Just TELLING others to live thus-and-so is worthless. You have to try to LIVE so that others will see God in your light. By their fruits you will know them!
Just in closing, I’d like to remind everyone that if your only experience of the Scripture is in hearing it from someone else, or reading short passages, then you need to sit down and read the book from cover to cover. Several times. In modern English. Read two different versions and compare! Read it straight through or skip around, but make sure you read it all. You have to know the story before you can tell it to others! Thanks, Brian, for making me aware of this story we find ourselves in!
Reita Lou
Hi Brian,
Like any arguement, it’s persuasiveness is dependant upon it’s foundational premise.
For me Brian, your supposition (B) is inaccurate. Satan, not God, is the tormentor and torturer. His accomplice is our free will. Hence accountability.
Jesus does not condemn so much as the free will chooses. Judgement then, simply confers right consequence upon the previously expressed choice.
Kingdom building, ought to be about equipping mankind with the right understanding of Godliness, so that each are able to freely choose that which is of God and to reject that which isn’t.
While words are important. Good works create a more lasting and honest expression of what Jesus manifest in us, should look like.
Still, as I understand God, whether by means of grace and prosperity, redemptive suffering or despair, dark paths or well lit ways; salvation is the ultimate objective.
Jesus came, suffered and died so that the gates of heaven would be open to us. That we might be reconciled with our father in heaven. Everything that is good then must point the way to salvation. Actions, no matter how appealing and worthy, that don’t redeem, that don’t as a consequence of their expression lead to the Father through Jesus, might be better left undone.
Not that failing to act won’t leave us ashamed and heartbroken, on the contrary, perhaps that is intentional; part of the lesson to be learned. Still if we continue to try to effect goodwill and ease suffering apart from the message of salvation, what real good have we done?
Everything that is of God, will leave us feeling at peace, bring His peace to others and strengthen our understanding of His will for our lives.
It would be better I believe if we moved away from theological understandings and expressions that synthesize pluralism and Christianity. It is well past time for Christians to reconcile as one faith family.
There is just one Jesus. There is just one word, there should be just one community, just one church. The multiplicity of Christian expression, is it the face of Christ? Or the face of ego?
There is a hell Brian and as the domain of darkness and the evil one, I doubt I could even begin to imagine its horror or grotesqueness, much less put those images into words.
What I do know is that through faith in God, by our best and most honest imitation of the the life of Jesus, we can be saved.
His love and grace will carry us home. We just have to choose.
Hey Brian!
I’ve never had this kind of access to an influencial author before! I like it.
Just a question, have you read ‘The Great Divorce’ by C.S. Lewis. I read it and let it shape my theology of heaven and hell. What do you think of his imagery to describe hell?
I get excited when you talk about ‘kingdom focus.’ That’s what it’s all about! Thanks for checking up here and investing in our lives.
-Nathan W.
Can someone tell Eric Nabutete to contact his friend from San Francisco?
Mark Brombacher -
This is an old long time friend of Eric Nabutete. I lost touch with him over the last year – I’m glad to hear he is doing well. It would be great to hear from you Eric – my email address is mark@bromnet.com – you can also visit my website http://www.markbrombacher.com
basketball betting
http://basketballbetting.atspace.com
basketball betting
[URL="http://basketballbetting.atspace.com"]basketball betting[/URL]
online basketball betting
http://onlinebasketballbetting.atspace.com
online basketball betting
[URL="http://onlinebasketballbetting.atspace.com"]online basketball betting[/URL]
college basketball betting
http://collegebasketballbetting.atspace.com
college basketball betting
[URL="http://collegebasketballbetting.atspace.com"]college basketball betting[/URL]
ncaa basketball betting
http://ncaabasketballbetting.atspace.com
ncaa basketball betting
[URL="http://ncaabasketballbetting.atspace.com"]ncaa basketball betting[/URL]
basketball betting line
http://basketballbettingline.atspace.com
basketball betting line
[URL="http://basketballbettingline.atspace.com"]basketball betting line[/URL]
nfl betting
http://nflbetting.atspace.com
nfl betting
[URL="http://nflbetting.atspace.com"]nfl betting[/URL]
nfl betting odds
http://nflbettingodds.atspace.com
nfl betting odds
[URL="http://nflbettingodds.atspace.com"]nfl betting odds[/URL]
nfl football betting
http://nflfootballbetting.atspace.com
nfl football betting
[URL="http://nflfootballbetting.atspace.com"]nfl football betting[/URL]
nfl betting line
http://nflbettingline.atspace.com
nfl betting line
[URL="http://nflbettingline.atspace.com"]nfl betting line[/URL]
virtual betting
http://virtualbetting.atspace.com
virtual betting
[URL="http://virtualbetting.atspace.com"]virtual betting[/URL]
betting etrade spread
http://bettingetradespread.atspace.com
betting etrade spread
[URL="http://bettingetradespread.atspace.com"]betting etrade spread[/URL]
betting olympic sports
http://bettingolympicsports.atspace.com
betting olympic sports
[URL="http://bettingolympicsports.atspace.com"]betting olympic sports[/URL]
football betting
http://footballbetting.atspace.com
football betting
[URL="http://footballbetting.atspace.com"]football betting[/URL]
college football betting
http://collegefootballbetting.atspace.com
college football betting
[URL="http://collegefootballbetting.atspace.com"]college football betting[/URL]
online football betting
http://onlinefootballbetting.atspace.com
online football betting
[URL="http://onlinefootballbetting.atspace.com"]online football betting[/URL]
ncaa football betting
http://ncaafootballbetting.atspace.com
ncaa football betting
[URL="http://ncaafootballbetting.atspace.com"]ncaa football betting[/URL]
football betting system
http://footballbettingsystem.atspace.com
football betting system
[URL="http://footballbettingsystem.atspace.com"]football betting system[/URL]
football betting line
http://footballbettingline.atspace.com
football betting line
[URL="http://footballbettingline.atspace.com"]football betting line[/URL]
horse betting
http://horsebetting.atspace.com
horse betting
[URL="http://horsebetting.atspace.com"]horse betting[/URL]
baseball betting
http://baseballbetting.atspace.com
baseball betting
[URL="http://baseballbetting.atspace.com"]baseball betting[/URL]
online sports betting
http://onlinesportsbetting.atspace.com
online sports betting
[URL="http://onlinesportsbetting.atspace.com"]online sports betting[/URL]
spread betting
http://spreadbetting.atspace.com
spread betting
[URL="http://spreadbetting.atspace.com"]spread betting[/URL]
soccer betting
http://soccerbetting.atspace.com
soccer betting
[URL="http://soccerbetting.atspace.com"]soccer betting[/URL]
betting online wager
http://bettingonlinewager.atspace.com
betting online wager
[URL="http://bettingonlinewager.atspace.com"]betting online wager[/URL]
With regard to viagra and erectile dysfunction, it is already apparent that Viagra was first developed as a treatment for angina but later the drug emerged to be a suitable cure for male impotency but far more striking news is presently capturing the attention of the whole world. Seems Untrue! Well, it is doubtlessly true that oysters fed with the anti-impotency drug Viagra has shown effective results against erectile dysfunction and George May, the Australian farmer who created Viagra oysters became thoroughly popular after the news relating to the efficacy of his Viagra oysters leaked out. Guys! If cheap viagra can make oysters so powerful against erectile dysfunction then why won’t you be able to combat your impotency successfully after you buy viagra? Opt for Viagra via viagra online and once you buy Viagra online and administer the drug in accordance with the instructions of the doctor, you would instantly get cured of erectile dysfunction!
latina porn latin porn porn movies porn videos porn clips porn sites reality porn sites reality porn xxx porn fat porn gay porn anal porn porn hardcore porn young porn hot porn porn trailers soft porn ducky porn hard core porn hard porn amateur porn brazil porn brazilian porn milf porn mature porn bisexual porn lesbian porn college porn black porn ebony porn interracial porn teen porn softcore porn blonde porn tranny porn transexual porn shemale porn porn pictures porn galleries porn gallery porn movie porn video porn video clips porn movie clips fetish porn wife porn tit fuck tit fucking titty fuck titty fucking gay fuck gay fucking gay ass fucking anal fucking anal fuck ass fucking ass fuck butt fuck butt fucking fuck fucking hardcore fucking hardcore fuck hard fucking hard fuck girls fucking first fuck young fuck young fucking first fucking mature fucking mature fuck lesbians fucking lesbian fucking lesbian fuck college fucking college fuck couples fucking girls fucking girls pussy fucking pussy fuck teen fuck teens fucking teen fucking blonde fuck blonde fucking wife fucking wife fuck
[...] Jordon Cooper’s site the action is yet to [...]